Tech Questions/Advice
85951 Air filter clearance with IDF's - ARRGGH! [JonL] (Wed Jun 26  5:06:12 2002)
   85960 Get rid of the hood insulation [carlf] (Wed Jun 26  8:05:12 2002)
      85963 Why can't this be easier!  [JonL] (Wed Jun 26  8:19:53 2002)
         85969 Re: Why can't this be easier! (discussion) [KenDickson] (Wed Jun 26  8:37:20 2002)
            85973 Re: Why can't this be easier! (discussion) [JonL] (Wed Jun 26  9:20:17 2002)
               85978 Re: Why can't this be easier! (discussion) [KenDickson] (Wed Jun 26 12:19:01 2002)
         85988 Re: Why can't this be easier! ........Because [Zagato] (Wed Jun 26 15:13:21 2002)
      85970 Carl, another question [JonL] (Wed Jun 26  8:39:55 2002)
         85982 Clearance issues [ajossy] (Wed Jun 26 13:25:55 2002)
            85983 Running without stacks... [JonL] (Wed Jun 26 13:42:16 2002)
               85986 Re: Running without stacks... [ajossy] (Wed Jun 26 13:52:24 2002)
                  86000 Re: Running without stacks... [danderson2] (Wed Jun 26 20:56:10 2002)
                     86006 Re: Running without stacks... [ajossy] (Thu Jun 27  6:06:33 2002)
            85984 You guys probably know... [stephens] (Wed Jun 26 13:43:22 2002)
               85985 Those look cool, but... [ajossy] (Wed Jun 26 13:47:51 2002)
         85990 Re: Carl, another question [carlf] (Wed Jun 26 17:11:29 2002)
   85987 Re: Air filter clearance with IDF's - ARRGGH! [Jonas] (Wed Jun 26 14:40:24 2002)
   86007 Re: Air filter clearance with IDF's - ARRGGH! [ORTIZ] (Thu Jun 27  6:09:58 2002)
      86019 Re: Air filter clearance with IDF's - ARRGGH! [JonL] (Thu Jun 27  8:56:08 2002)
         86025 I just spoke to Pierce Manifold... [JonL] (Thu Jun 27 10:55:05 2002)
            86037 consolation prize [MikeR] (Thu Jun 27 17:21:00 2002)
               86038 Re: consolation prize [fiat850] (Thu Jun 27 18:01:57 2002)
                  86049 DCOE's are different. [JonL] (Fri Jun 28  5:30:40 2002)
         86034 Re: Air filter clearance with IDF's - ARRGGH! [ORTIZ] (Thu Jun 27 15:53:44 2002)

Last night was pretty productive.  I finished cutting my own 
phenolic spacer places and fianally got my package from Pierce 
with the IDF air filters.  I got the carbs installed and 
everything was hunky-dory until I tried to close the hood!!!

The rear carb's air filter is hitting the underside of the hood 
(or at least the hood lining material) and makes closing the 
hood difficult.  The air filter is a 2-1/2" high one whiich only 
leaves about 1/2-3/4" above the stacks on the inside of the 
box.  The spacer plates are about 1/3" thick and I'm using a 
waffle type manifold on a 2L block.  Has anyone else had 
clearance problems?  I'm afraid to have the tension of the hood 
pressing down on the carbs/manifold, but I'm also concerned that 
going to a shorter filter would restrict the intake into the 
stacks.  Any feelings?

Jon W. Logan
Hilliard, Ohio (Columbus)
1979 Spider 2000 (soon-to-be-IDF'ed!)

You will never have enough clearance under the hood of a 2L with 
that hood blanket in place.  You will barely have enough 
clearance without it.  Remember, the hood rocks clockwise as you 
sit in the car so you need even more clearance than just being 
able to close the hood, as the motor rocks the filter tops go up.

Carl
Northern Virginia
80 spider (40 IDF)
81 spider, auto/AC


email user is AFried1234 and domain is aol.com  (Home)
carl.email user is friedman and domain is uspto.gov  

Jon W. Logan
Hilliard, Ohio (Columbus)
1979 Spider 2000 (soon-to-be-IDF'ed!)

Jon,

It  gets  worse.  If your horns are that close to  the top of the 
filter, you might have some really rich mixtures at  high  
throttle  openings. You might want to try removing some material 
from your air horns.  3/8" off the top shouldn't hurt anything
and should really improve airflow into the chokes. Short airhorns 
are readily available from the VW speedshops and recently on eBay.

Lowering  the engine  is doable.  Try looking into  some shorter 
engine mounts.  I think Csaba actually redrilled  his mounting 
holes to drop the engine down about half an inch.  Beware.  This 
also brings the pan into closer proximity to roadkill on the
other  end of the engine. 2Ls are tall.  Hood clearance is tight 
even with my 1608 and the same setup you have.  I have marks onmy 
engine pads from the turtleback, but there is no real damage.  

Finally, I would run the pads so you don't  get dents in the hood 
from the aircleaners.  The hood is flexible enough to rest on the 
aircleaners without  to  much problem.  Without  the pads, you 
might not  be pleased with the results. 

Hope this helps. 

Ken Dickson
email user is kdickson and domain is mo.net
"Red" '71 124 Spider #4 of 4
Continuous Spiders since '68
http://www.kendickson.com/car/Fiat.html

Thanks for the insights Ken.  I think there is enough clearance 
now for the stacks under the filter.  I don't want to make any 
drastic changes (ie lowering motor mounts, redrilling, removing 
insulation) until I know I'm even going to like the results of 
the IDF's.  

I hope to fire it up tonight.  I haven't hooked up the cable for 
the cold start valves but I don't think that will be a big issue 
right now in 90 deg weather.  If the filters can take the 
weight/tension of the hood as is for a few days, I want to get a 
feel for the performance difference.  If I don't like the 
results, the 34ADF and 1800 intake will go back on prior to FFO.

God, rebuilding the IDF's was a piece of cake and even 
understanding the theory of their operation was simple.  All 
these little install issues (air filters, breather, vac advance, 
insulators, etc..) is driving me nuts!


Jon W. Logan
Hilliard, Ohio (Columbus)
1979 Spider 2000 (soon-to-be-IDF'ed!)

Jon,

I think  you will like the IDFs. I can offer a first hand 
comparison. Kris has a 76 1800 spider with 
the 34ADF and single plane manifold and Red (71-1608)just walks 
away from it under acceleration in any gear. There IS a
difference over the 34ADF which is an excellent carb. The sound
of the IDFs alone is worth putting them on.  I've read that
people think that FI probably works better day to day but
there's no Vrooooom as Allen Lofland likes  to say! Besides, It's
appropriate to put IDFs on pre-injection spiders.  What more 
excuse could you want?  :^)

I agree, they are easy to tune, and maintain.  Pete Angel did a 
beautiful job of  cleaning  mine up after being under water for 3 
months in the flood  of 93, and except  for a nagging problem
with the idle on #4 cyl, they work great! I'd call that rugged 
reliability.   I've had this set since 1973 and never really had 
to mess with them.  Extremely docile at low rpms and WOT. 

I hooked up the enrichment devices, but I've never needed it. Two 
pumps on the gas, let the throttle remain at idle and the car 
starts as soon as you turn the key.  Couple of blips to ballance 
the fuel to all the cylinders, and drive away.  	


Ken Dickson
email user is kdickson and domain is mo.net
"Red" '71 124 Spider #4 of 4
Continuous Spiders since '68
http://www.kendickson.com/car/Fiat.html

 It would leave you with no overwhelming feeling of joyfull 
success if it was easy!, keep at it! your doing fine!    (:-)

Marion, Ohio, US
82 Zagato #4024 (Can be seen at: 
http://www.motorcities.com/contents/02A6A371738497.html )
82 Zagato #3801 (Now almost my daily driver)
01 Hyundia Elantra GT (Black is beautiful!)
81 Lancia Zagato #2094 (Vin tags, title only)
82 Lancia Zagato #4098 (Vin tags, title and Trac Hoe crushed 
shell only)
82 Lancia Zagato #4180 (Vin tags and title only)

  "You will never have enough clearance under the hood of a 2L 
with that hood blanket in place.  You will barely have enough 
clearance without it."

Carl, that said, does that mean without your hood insulator you 
do have enough room under the hood even for engine movement?  
I'd hate to remove the insulation only to find the filters still 
hit the underside of the hood.  Have you had any problems?

Thanks


Jon W. Logan
Hilliard, Ohio (Columbus)
1979 Spider 2000 (soon-to-be-IDF'ed!)

Jon,
I have my carbs ready to go on, just waiting for a gasket.  I 
have smaller air clearners, they are only 1.5 inches tall, I do 
not have any velocity stacks, am I going to have a problem with 
that?  With the short cleaners and no stacks I have no clearance 
issue at all.  The hood closes nicely with the carbs in place.  
I have not done the clay test yet to see how much clearance I 
have... perhaps that is a relevant thing to check.
I have everything else worked out (I think) other than the 
crankcase breather, and still trying to find one more fuel inlet 
nipple so I can use the return line for the fuel tank.  
Did you simply block off the tank vent line from the charcoal 
canister?

Andy (Medford, Oregon)
1976 Spider (hers, was green, soon to be blue)
1977 Spider (parts car RIP)
1979 Spider (his)
1980 Brava (possible ralley car?)
1980 Chevy K20 4x4 (work truck, semi-retired)
1998 Grand Caravan (Family taxi)
http://www.heroweb.org/fiat

I can't imagine running without the stacks is a good idea.  The 
13/15's have an enrichment tube that sits high in the stack and 
without it it would just be hanging out in the middle of the air 
filter box hovering over a big hole.  With air crossing through 
the box, the fuel out of the enrichment tube would be splatered 
about rather than drawn neatly into the engine.

I'm still trying to think of the best option hear.

Jon W. Logan
Hilliard, Ohio (Columbus)
1979 Spider 2000 (soon-to-be-IDF'ed!)

I have 70's and they do not have the enrichment tubes. Guess 
that is another difference.  Nothing comes out of the top of the 
carbs at all.  
When I got my carbs they did not have the air horns or stacks, I 
bought horns, but decided against stacks, I thought they were 
for show more than anything else, and since I was using an air 
cleaner didn't need them.... Time will tell.. I will go ahead 
and leave mine as is.. I will see what the consensus is at 
OR02.  
Should we call this Carb wars?  LOL

Andy (Medford, Oregon)
1976 Spider (hers, was green, soon to be blue)
1977 Spider (parts car RIP)
1979 Spider (his)
1980 Brava (possible ralley car?)
1980 Chevy K20 4x4 (work truck, semi-retired)
1998 Grand Caravan (Family taxi)
http://www.heroweb.org/fiat

Hi Andy

I don't think that you will notice any performance difference 
with or without stacks or horns.  You might be able to see it on 
a dyno, but not by seat of the pants.  Without the stacks you 
will get a little fuel residue on the inside of the air filter 
base plate, with them you won't.

Let them rip, I know yer gunna like um.

BTW my fuel return line is blocked off, no ill effects.

thanks,


Dwight Anderson
Boise, ID
mailto:email user is dwightanderson2 and domain is msn.com
http://www.msnusers.com/DwightsFiatSite
81 Lancia Zagato (Red)
79 2000 Spider(fun in the sun car - also red)
71 124 Spider (work in progress)

Thanks Dwight!
All I need now is my care package from Caribou...
My car has been sitting for a week *POUT*, soon it will vroooom 
again!

Andy (Medford, Oregon)
1976 Spider (hers, was green, soon to be blue)
1977 Spider (parts car RIP)
1979 Spider (his)
1980 Brava (possible ralley car?)
1980 Chevy K20 4x4 (work truck, semi-retired)
1998 Grand Caravan (Family taxi)
http://www.heroweb.org/fiat

While we're on the topic, I think it would be cool to have these 
on my car instead of a big air filter thing - 

http://makeashorterlink.com/?K36922421

So...does one really need an air filter? The screens on top 
would keep large objects out but how about just dirty air? What 
would be the issues with running these on a street car?

Rich Stephens
Designer/localizer Japanese or English
Visalia, CA
'71 Dino 2400 coupe #5262 (daily driver, highway warrior)
'64 1500 cabriolet (being sold as parts car?)
http://www.3jar.com/rich/dino/ 

Small "dust" can cause a lot abrasive action in an engine. I 
don't think I would want to run very long with just screens, if 
it was a race engine that I planned to tear down frequently I 
might change my mind.  But to go 100,000 miles or so (is the 
optimistic enough? *SMILE*) with just screens seems to be unwise.
Just my opnion, and I may be very wrong,
Andy (Medford, Oregon)
1976 Spider (hers, was green, soon to be blue)
1977 Spider (parts car RIP)
1979 Spider (his)
1980 Brava (possible ralley car?)
1980 Chevy K20 4x4 (work truck, semi-retired)
1998 Grand Caravan (Family taxi)
http://www.heroweb.org/fiat

I have oval shaped filters with knockoff K&N filter elements.  
The rear fits with no problem the front hit the hood and I had 
to shorten the filter element to lower the cover.  I think mine 
are taller than yours.  My filters did not come even close to 
fitting with the insulation pad.   There are no guarantees as 
each spider is different.  On my 78 2L conversion the stock hood 
would not fit but an identical hood from another spider did fit!

Todd has real low filters about an inch tall but he runs without 
any stacks.  

If you just want to see how the car runs, run without the 
filters.  50 miles without filters won't kill your car

Carl
Northern Virginia
80 spider (40 IDF)
81 spider, auto/AC


email user is AFried1234 and domain is aol.com  (Home)
carl.email user is friedman and domain is uspto.gov  

I started with my conversion for about 6 months ago, and I'm
picking the engine apart the second time right now, it has been
running less than an hour. I'm on my fourth set of carbs, two
been stolen and the other two in bad shape. Fried the starter and
alternator during tests. Intake hits the booster, tight linkage,
booster hits the idling jet, head fails, flames through carbs,
new ignition, second set of cams, but tonight I will get them
running properly :-) (wich I've said before) 

I'm using Pipercross dual foam socks. They are open all way
around and soft so it doesn't matter if they touch the hood
slightly. They are a bit loud though.

Cheers.

124 Sport Coupé -69
124 Sport Coupé -75
Piaggio P200 -81

restrict the intake into the 
: stacks.  Any feelings?

Jon,
    Any chance of machining the stacks (or buying shorter ones) 
down and using the shorter filters?

Pablo,

I'm actually concidering running without the horns and using a 
shorter foam type filter.



Jon W. Logan
Hilliard, Ohio (Columbus)
1979 Spider 2000 (soon-to-be-IDF'ed!)

Pierce just gave a blessing on running the 40IDF13/15 without 
the air horns using the shorter foam air filter.  This alone 
will buy me an extra 1/2 inch of clearance.  I also ordered a 
set of 1/8" thick heat spacer gaskets to replace the 1/4" ones I 
made out of a sheet of phenolic plastic.

This should give me an extra 5/8 " clearance and the oval 
filters are not as tall at the edges so I should be in good 
shape.

I also ordered a replacement cold start valve plunger to 
hopefully cure the leaking into the #4 cylinder.

Wish me luck.


Jon W. Logan
Hilliard, Ohio (Columbus)
1979 Spider 2000 (soon-to-be-IDF'ed!)

Here is a consolation prize...if you put those air horns up for 
sale, they'll fetch a nice price.  They are NLA big time.  I 
bet you could get $50 for them.

MikeR (enjoying mirafiori.com since 1995)
'77 Fiat 124 Spider
'76 Fiat 128 4 door
Beaverton, Oregon

'81 Fiat Spider 2000 Anniversary #236
Interlochen, Michigan (summers)

Mike Richmond wrote:
: Here is a consolation prize...if you put those air horns up for 
: sale, they'll fetch a nice price.  They are NLA big time.  I 
: bet you could get $50 for them.

 Hmmm... will these fit DCOE as well? Got a pic? I may be 
interested. =^)


Jeff Stich
Yorba Linda, Ca.
http://home.earthlink.net/~fiat850/
Rear Engine Fiat Club member

Various Fiat 850's
1956 Fiat Viotti 600 Coupe
1966 Abarth OT1000 Spider
1969 Fiat 850 Spt. Cpe. (Euro/RHD)
1972 Fiat 128 Wagon

DCOE horns are different than the stock IDF top plate/horns.  
For what it's worth, Pierce has been advertising on their web 
site original IDF horns for $20/ea (limited supply).


Jon W. Logan
Hilliard, Ohio (Columbus)
1979 Spider 2000 (soon-to-be-IDF'ed!)

Jon Logan (Hilliard, Ohio) wrote:
: Pablo,
: I'm actually concidering running without the horns and using a 
: shorter foam type filter.
: Jon W. Logan
: Hilliard, Ohio (Columbus)
: 1979 Spider 2000 (soon-to-be-IDF'ed!)

Jon,
   Back when I ran Webers, I didn't use horns.  It wasn't too 
messy because by the time those enrichment tubes kick in 
anything nearby is going into the throats.  Good luck.  I look 
forward to seeing your setup at Freakout...Pablo

dauber