Wed 26th Nov 2003 12:59am Copper Coating Head Gaskets ,Good or Bad?? (Jim Fierst)
      Wed 26th Nov 2003 04:48am Re: Copper Coating Head Gaskets ,Good or Bad?? (Will Holding)
           Wed 26th Nov 2003 06:01am Used to, before the days (longer than I wanted) (Joe Kennedy (Charleston, SC))
      Wed 26th Nov 2003 10:46am Re: I agree with Joe/ Better silicone replacement (Mike)
      Wed 26th Nov 2003 07:33pm gasket gaskets seal sealer sealant sealants (starmoto)
           Wed 26th Nov 2003 07:38pm Re: gasket gaskets seal sealer sealant sealants (Pete Angel (Colo Sprgs, CO, USA))
           Wed 26th Nov 2003 07:48pm Re: gasket gaskets seal sealer sealant sealants (starmoto)
                Wed 26th Nov 2003 07:56pm Re: gasket gaskets seal sealer sealant sealants (starmoto)
                     Wed 26th Nov 2003 09:57pm fipg (Pete Angel (Colo Sprgs, CO, USA))
      Thu 27th Nov 2003 03:10am Again Thanks And ...... (Jim Fierst)
           Thu 27th Nov 2003 07:27am Re: Again Thanks And ...... (Will Holding)

112322 Wed 26th Nov 2003 12:59am Copper Coating Head Gaskets ,Good or Bad?? (Jim Fierst)
.Again,many years ago (but not recently) I got into the habit of 
spraying head gaskets with copper gasket seal.. I remember 
getting the info from some one in the rebuild business 
professionally .The last 3 engines I did I put the gasket 
on "dry"  with no problems and was wondering what expierences 
some of you may have had using copper. 
    
1982 Fiat Spider     Restored & being turbo'd.
1996 Bronco4x4       Work horse.
2000 Subaru Outb'k   Her "go anywhere" mobile.
Located in CO but headed for AZ.

112325 Wed 26th Nov 2003 04:48am Re: Copper Coating Head Gaskets ,Good or Bad?? (Will Holding)
Jim:
Never used the stuff, I use nothing on head gaskets and thin 
film of Hylomar or Permatex Ultra Copper on most other gaskets.
I'm told Permatex Aviation is good but haven't run across it.
 I did hear from another list that using the copper spray crap 
can KO your O2 sensor just like silicone will, something about 
the binder. I don't really buy this, but if it is an issue, 
you'd want to clean it off the fire rings and just use it to 
seal the water/oil passages. Dry works though, so why mess with 
it? Cam cover gaskets, sane thing- work dry, often fail when you 
put silicone on them due to extrusion.
-Will



Jim Fierst wrote:
: .Again,many years ago (but not recently) I got into the habit 
of 
: spraying head gaskets with copper gasket seal.. I remember 
: getting the info from some one in the rebuild business 
: professionally .The last 3 engines I did I put the gasket 
: on "dry"  with no problems and was wondering what expierences 
: some of you may have had using copper. 
:     
: 1982 Fiat Spider     Restored & being turbo'd.
: 1996 Bronco4x4       Work horse.
: 2000 Subaru Outb'k   Her "go anywhere" mobile.
: Located in CO but headed for AZ.

112329 Wed 26th Nov 2003 06:01am Used to, before the days (longer than I wanted) (Joe Kennedy (Charleston, SC))
of silicone coated (or even teflon impregnated) head gaskets, a 
sealer was necessary. And copper head gaskets used to be common. 
If you were using a copper gasket, it would HAVE to have some 
type of sealer. I have used copper spray (and the kind with the 
cotton ball on a stick type applications) and have NOT used it 
on head gaskets in the past on non-FIATS and 2 cycle boat 
motors, and have never been able to tell a difference. I really 
think with the improvements in head gaskets sealing (at least in 
the 20 or so years I have been working on cars), unless you have 
an oddball water passage that is not near or under a head bolt, 
you don't need anything. But the good part is, normally, if you 
spray coat a gasket, it won't hurt anything. I'm not sure how 
you could get enough of it on your 02 sensor to foul it, but I 
guess it could.

However, I could NOT get my cam box covers ( I went through TWO 
on the exhaust side!) to quit leaking until I put copper spray 
on it. I didn't want to use silicone because I just know how 
messy that stuff is, and the copper coat did the trick.






Will Holding wrote:
: Jim:
: Never used the stuff, I use nothing on head gaskets and thin 
: film of Hylomar or Permatex Ultra Copper on most other gaskets.
: I'm told Permatex Aviation is good but haven't run across it.
:  I did hear from another list that using the copper spray crap 
: can KO your O2 sensor just like silicone will, something about 
: the binder. I don't really buy this, but if it is an issue, 
: you'd want to clean it off the fire rings and just use it to 
: seal the water/oil passages. Dry works though, so why mess 
with 
: it? Cam cover gaskets, sane thing- work dry, often fail when 
you 
: put silicone on them due to extrusion.
: -Will
: Jim Fierst wrote:
: : .Again,many years ago (but not recently) I got into the 
habit 
: of 
: : spraying head gaskets with copper gasket seal.. I remember 
: : getting the info from some one in the rebuild business 
: : professionally .The last 3 engines I did I put the gasket 
: : on "dry"  with no problems and was wondering what 
expierences 
: : some of you may have had using copper. 
: :     
: : 1982 Fiat Spider     Restored & being turbo'd.
: : 1996 Bronco4x4       Work horse.
: : 2000 Subaru Outb'k   Her "go anywhere" mobile.
: : Located in CO but headed for AZ.
1982 Fiat Spider 14K miles (once a turbo..maybe again one day)

112338 Wed 26th Nov 2003 10:46am Re: I agree with Joe/ Better silicone replacement (Mike)
If the head gasket you're installing has soft beads of sealer 
around the coolant/oil passages the copper coat isn't needed.  
However, I used the spray on copper for years to good success on 
gaskets without sealer already on them.  I like the spray on 
copper, but I hate the brush on stuff-- it just can't be applied 
evenly by hand.

I don't like Aviation Permatex.  The stuff will dry out and 
crack as it ages.  Not only can that cause the seal to fail, but 
the excess bead inside the motor could flake off and get into 
the oil.  I know they claim it's non-hardening, but that's not 
been my experience.

For me it's a moot point anyway since I have found the "ultimate 
sealer".  Go to a motorcycle dealer and buy a tube of Hondabond 
or Yamabond (same stuff-- I use Hondabond).  It's a solvent 
based (cleans up with laquer thinner etc.) sealer that stays 
flexible after it dries and has excellent adhesive qualities.  
It's intended for sealing the split cases on bike motors so it 
works great on cam boxes etc.  A little goes a looong way, so 
apply sparingly.

Since finding Hondabond I use it as "insurance" on WP pump 
gaskets etc.  I never use silcone on engines anymore except for 
maybe sealing exhaust gaskets (if need be).  Try Hondabond or 
Yamabond and you'll thank me later.  ;-)

HTH,

///Mike
'76 X1/9

112345 Wed 26th Nov 2003 07:33pm gasket gaskets seal sealer sealant sealants (starmoto)
the one and only time I used copper spray on a FIAT (Lancia) head
gasket was because the customer insisted, and guess what... It
leaked! water/steam and ruined a brand new Jet-Hot coated ANSA
header. I still have the can and havnt used it since. I dont use
anything on FIAT head gaskets.

permatex "aviation" is now called "300" and works great on cam
boxes if applied sparingly, I have engines still running arround
that dont leak oil from cam boxes that I used it on over ten
years ago! 

however, as Ive mentioned here before "yamabond" is the shnit!
also known as "threebond" same stuff but cost less. but you will
have fun getting it apart again if needed. it is grey so if you
do apply too much and it squeezes out, it doesnt stand out like
those colorful sealants. I mainly use it on the outside of seals
before I install them. (and Bike engines of course, and I wish it
was black)

FWIW I would NEVER put a cam box gasket in DRY, some here say it
works fine but I learned against that advise a long time ago and
cam box gaskets havnt changed.

 the only thing I use silicone for is gaskets/passages that seal
coolant.

while we are talking about sealants, may as well mention "gorrila
snot" for oil pan gaskets which is actually 3M weather strip
adhesive.

I HATE LEAKS! they are real killers on motorbikes

/////

112346 Wed 26th Nov 2003 07:38pm Re: gasket gaskets seal sealer sealant sealants (Pete Angel (Colo Sprgs, CO, USA))
starmoto wrote:
: however, as Ive mentioned here before "yamabond" is the shnit!
... and I wish it was black)

I've used yammerhammerbond - good stuff. the toyota equivalent, 
FIPG, is black.

112347 Wed 26th Nov 2003 07:48pm Re: gasket gaskets seal sealer sealant sealants (starmoto)
I should have mentioned that Lancia head that leaked was supplied
as "rebiult by a friend" and I measured .003" warpage but Ive had
them with .001" more than that seal up with no sealants so I
agreed to install it and I figured if anything the copperspray
would help since it was slightly warped... NOT!

/////

112348 Wed 26th Nov 2003 07:56pm Re: gasket gaskets seal sealer sealant sealants (starmoto)
>>I've used yammerhammerbond - good stuff. the toyota equivalent, 
FIPG, is black.<<

are you certain its and "equal"? I mean toyota and all... but I
will certainly check it out! gotta serious winter project I might
use it on. thx

/////

112349 Wed 26th Nov 2003 09:57pm fipg (Pete Angel (Colo Sprgs, CO, USA))
starmoto wrote:
: are you certain its and "equal"? I mean toyota and all... but I
: will certainly check it out! 

You'll have to give it a try sometime. Available only at Toyota 
dealers, FIPG is a black room-temperature vulcanizing 
sealant/adhesive. After field testing it for about 15 years now, 
I've found it to be highly resistant to oil & chemicals. It 
outperforms the permatex ultra in all areas. Flows well and sets 
evenly without rapid 'skinning'. 

The slower cure allows more time to apply and spread into ultra 
thin layers without lumps forming. The flow & curing 
characterstics inhibit the formation of trapped air pockets in 
thicker applications, such a seal/diaphragm/weatherstrip repair, 
and allows it to be shaped before full cure. 

Toyota specs it as an oil pan gasket maker...I use it for 
everything that isn't nailed down or doesn't move fast enough, 
such as cambox & oil pan gaskets, seal perimeters, 
transmissions, coolant areas, thread sealant, windshield 
sealant, and all around flexible bonding agent...good stuff.

a word of caution tho'.... wear gloves when applying; it'll 
stain pink fingertips, but cleans up well with lacquer thinner 
before cure....retail is about $9 for a 3oz tube.

112351 Thu 27th Nov 2003 03:10am Again Thanks And ...... (Jim Fierst)
.I used gorilla snot to stick the oil pan gasket to the pan  the 
day before I installed it and then  when I installed it  "Toyota 
Black" to seal the top.I wore rubber gloves too. It didn't leak 
on the way home( some 15 miles).. I think I will go down dry 
with the head gasket ..The copper coat is probably best left for 
copper head gaskets..
1982 Fiat Spider     Restored & being turbo'd.
1996 Bronco4x4       Work horse.
2000 Subaru Outb'k   Her "go anywhere" mobile.
Located in CO but headed for AZ.

112353 Thu 27th Nov 2003 07:27am Re: Again Thanks And ...... (Will Holding)
FIAT/ Lancia HG's as early as the early 80's, and perhaps even 
earlier, have beads of sealant on them. The ones you buy today 
ALL do AFAIK, at least all the ones I've bought do - even the 
cheap-ass Guarnitautos. (I don't buy these, but that's what 
comes in the full engine sets I get from IAP). No other sealant 
should be necessary.
 DO you prefer rubber or cork composite oil pan gaskets? I've 
used both and THINK I like the rubber better, although the cork 
composite seems to have more compression.
-Will



Jim Fierst wrote:
: .I used gorilla snot to stick the oil pan gasket to the pan  
the 
: day before I installed it and then  when I installed 
it  "Toyota 
: Black" to seal the top.I wore rubber gloves too. It didn't 
leak 
: on the way home( some 15 miles).. I think I will go down dry 
: with the head gasket ..The copper coat is probably best left 
for 
: copper head gaskets..
: 1982 Fiat Spider     Restored & being turbo'd.
: 1996 Bronco4x4       Work horse.
: 2000 Subaru Outb'k   Her "go anywhere" mobile.
: Located in CO but headed for AZ.