"How quaint the ways of paradox,
  At common sense she gaily mocks"

     (The Pirates of Penzance, Gilbert & Sullivan)

In 1959 there was a movie with Peter Sellers entitled When a Mouse Roars.

The premise of the movie is this:  The Duchy of Grand Fenwick decides that the
only way to get out of 
their economic woes is to declare war on the United States, lose and accept
foreign aid. 

Along this line... by the end of WWII (the "Good War") we had absolutely
destroyed Japan's economy.  In 
an unprecedented role of the victor, we decided to rebuild their country and
economy.

Now, look, Japan has beaten us in the areas of automobiles, cameras, and
electronics.

(RIch and Hess will certainly know more about Japan's situation than I, and
hopefully will comment).

Japan has outpaced us with the "green" automobile.  Detroit, as usual, is
trying to catch up.

Can an "industrial giant" (the U.S.A.) find its way back to a leadership role
of pre-eminence in a global 
economy?  Or are we the next "third world" entity?

Or, perhaps, maybe I should just be outsourced to Bangladesh....

But I worry...

Phil
Cedar City, Yewtaw

Phil -

I'm no student of macroeconomics, but I'd worry more about India and China 
than Japan.

Most consumer goods aren't made here anymore and to most people that seems to 
mean that America doesn't know how to make anything anymore. I think that's a 
bit of a red herring because America makes all sorts of things, but I am quite 
concerned for the state of education, especially in the sciences and 
engineering in this country.  

Here in NY, the math cirriculum for secondary students is a raging mess.  It's 
a hodgepodge of algebra, trig, geometry, and God knows what else put together 
haphazardly, supposedly to give students a holistic view, I'd guess.  It 
confuses the hell out of me and I was good at math in HS and remain reasonably 
compenent with it.  Many science courses are optional, which in my mind is 
ridiculous.  Why should Physics be optional?  Wouldn't most people benefit 
from a basic knowledge of Newtonian physics?  I won't even go into the 
arguments over evolution or stem cell research because that would just turn 
into a rant.

In any case, what I see in my daily existence as a scientist is that many 
smart people come here from somewhere else to make a better life for their 
families.  More frequently now, the've been educated outside the US as well - 
especially folks from India (IIT is one of the best technical universities on 
the planet).  Once they can stay home, get educated, and do just as well or 
better there than here, I think we're screwed because I don't know if our 
homegrown talent will measure up.  

What we have going for us still is infrastructure, communications, a great 
standard of living, and a generally good environment for entrepeneurial 
ventures, especially in the sciences.  If those things falter, we're also 
screwed...Therefore my simple minded solution is to force all students into 
physics class, fix the stupid math cirriculum, cut the creationist BS, then 
fix the roads, rails, and bridges.

Mo's later

Christopher Judd wrote:
: Phil -
: I'm no student of macroeconomics, but I'd worry more about India and China 
: than Japan.
: Most consumer goods aren't made here anymore and to most people that seems to 
: mean that America doesn't know how to make anything anymore. I think that's a 
: bit of a red herring because America makes all sorts of things, but I am quite 
: concerned for the state of education, especially in the sciences and 
: engineering in this country.  

I don't worry about this because this country needs a very small percentage of
its people to actually know advanced science and math. It does no good for the
average guy to know this stuff - there are actually more useful things for him
to know: though i'm not saying the schools are teaching that useful stuff either!

: Once they can stay home, get educated, and do just as well or 
: better there than here, I think we're screwed because I don't know if our 
: homegrown talent will measure up

I think that you'll find that if the Indians stay home to work in tech, there
will be plenty of Americans to replace them. The reason the Indians get employed
here is that the wages and working conditions offered by the companies here are
not very attractive to an American. If that cheaper labor pool dries up, there
will be a shift in company economics to value tech people more (and hopefully
sales people less) and Americans will once again be attracted to technology jobs.

On Japan, all i'll say is that America did help rebuild Japan, but it wasn't
really out of the kindness of American hearts. We needed a strong Ally in that
region to keep the balance against Russia and China and such.


............................................................
Rich Stephens, Pacifica, CA
Former Fiats: two 1500 cabs, a Dino, two 131 wagons, a brava
Surf van:'72 Fiat 238 Weinsberg 'Wohnmobile' CamperVan
Daily driver:  '69 124 Spider
One of every Fiat project: http://www.3jar.com/fiat
Bay Area Running of the Fiats club: http://barf.mirafiori.com

Rich Stephens (Pacifica, CA) wrote:
: I don't worry about this because this country needs a very small percentage 
: of its people to actually know advanced science and math. It does no good 
: for the average guy to know this stuff - there are actually more useful 
: things for him to know: though i'm not saying the schools are teaching that
: useful stuff either!

I beg to differ.  High school math and science are NOT advanced.  Most of the 
material was state-of-the-art 100 years ago.  In math, the only "advanced" 
subject is set theory and the students are only taught what it is and how to 
use it, not how to prove it or asked to do derivitave work.  In science, the 
Newtonian physics is 350 years old, the electrical equations are 100 years old, 
and the biology is 150 years old.

The trades use all this "hard" and "unuseful" math everyday.  If they don't 
know the basics of it, then they'll screw up the work because they try to do it 
by the seat of their pants.  White collar support staff who can't master a 
geometry proof aren't going to be able to figure out the answer to a simple 
technical question... it's one of the reasons so much support is based in 
India, because if it costs more to get that level of crappy support here, then 
why pay for it?

George Emery

Rich said:

Part of the reason we helped Japan following the war was that we needed a
partner in that area of the 
world.  True.

But, also, I think we learned from the grief caused by the Treaty of Versaille
in (?) 1918 that punished 
the Germans for their war efforts.  The Treaty demanded that Germany make
territorial concessions and 
pay reparations that were crippling to them.  As we now know, Hitler played on
the bitterness of his 
people and, ignoring the Treaty, built his war machine to the end results with
which we are all familiar.

Following the war, the Marshall Plan helped rebuild the economies of our former
enemies.  Of course, 
the U.S. had its own interests in building a foundation of allies that would
reject communism, but I 
think there was also some altruism in there somewhere.

Regardless, I believe we did the right thing.

Now maybe some other nation will do the same for us some day...

Phil
Cedar City, Yewtaw

Phil Dillard wrote:
: Now maybe some other nation will do the same for us some day...

Sadly, I doubt that would happen. None of the biggest powers out there are 
likely to be as honorable as we usually are. Russia? China? No way. They'd 
love to see us fail.
We can make anything here, but we've priced ourselves out of our own market.
We are now virtually only a service industry, which is worrisome.

23 Fiats since 1982
Now: 79 Austin Mini 37 bhp!
65 Ford pickup
87 BMW E30 race car
96 Subaru Impreza @ 220,000 miles
Co-founder FLU

George Emery  (Oregon City) wrote:
: The trades use all this "hard" and "unuseful" math everyday.  If they don't 
: know the basics of it, then they'll screw up the work because they try to do
it 
: by the seat of their pants.  White collar support staff who can't master a 
: geometry proof aren't going to be able to figure out the answer to a simple 
: technical question...

What percentage of the working population of this country do you think needs
math above basic algebra to do their job? I suspect it is less than 1% of the
population. I work in the 'trades' so to speak and i never need math that's
harder than algebra. And 90% of the time, when I do need math, I let the
computer do it for me anyway.

Some other 'trade' related projects may require engineers to do more complex
calculations and modelling, but you get a couple engineers to spec out a project
that then requires hundreds of guys to do the actual work according to the
plans. As long as we have a few people who are into science and math, safe
bridges will still get built. Similarly, there may be a dozen research
scientists involved in creating a new drug, but then thousands of other
employees selling it and doing all the administrative task of the company.

Of course from a cultural perspective, i'd love it if the average person had an
understanding of evolution, natural selection, the vastness of the cosmos, basic
 physics, cultural anthropology, world history and so on. But even that would
just require a surface level understanding on the level of "physics for poets"
(i.e. a survey of every field of physics, but where no calculations are done) or
reading general population books by Bill Bryson, Stephen Hawking, Jared Diamond,
or Joseph Cambell and the like. 99% of the population has no need to actually
*do* the science, as long as they know the generalities.

We live in an era of specialization.


............................................................
Rich Stephens, Pacifica, CA
Former Fiats: two 1500 cabs, a Dino, two 131 wagons, a brava
Surf van:'72 Fiat 238 Weinsberg 'Wohnmobile' CamperVan
Daily driver:  '69 124 Spider
One of every Fiat project: http://www.3jar.com/fiat
Bay Area Running of the Fiats club: http://barf.mirafiori.com

Rich - 

I'm going to keep this brief because I'm sleepy, but have you considered any 
of the posssible side effects to learning how to do math or science? I agree 
that only a small portion on the population needs to use advanced concepts 
routinely, but learning how to work out a tough math (or science) problem 
teaches a way of thinking that is very useful when one wishes to solve a 
problem systematically, then test the solution.  When combined with history 
(experience), a little bit of gut instinct, and luck it can be really 
powerful.  I also agree with George that what is taught in high schools today 
is decidedly not advanced and that everyone should have a reasonable 
understanding of physics, chemistry, biology, and math whether they want to 
study anthropology, French literature, or biomedical engineering later on.

Let the computer do it?  What put the computer together?  Who wrote the 
program?  What if the computer is *gasp* wrong!? Jeez, they're cheap enough.. 
How will you know when that happens and what will you do when it does screw 
up?  Is there an SOP for that? I've seen it and I'll tell ya, if you don't 
know yer sh*t when it happens, yer hammerd.  

Nighty night...

Dear Phil

If the question has evolved into the sub-questions raised/addressed within this
thread... e.g., "why did the usofa help Japan after WWII", or "why do Indians
like to work here rather than there", or "how much 7th/8th grade math does the
productive American use in their workday", etc...
... that's another set of chapters of bloviated answers.

If the question is as you state... "Can an "industrial giant" (the U.S.A.) find
its way back to a leadership role of pre-eminence in a global economy?  Or are
we the next "third world" entity?"
... got a short opinion/answer for ya at the end of the following longish text.

The answer is predicated on the reality of... How ?
How could/would/should the U.S.A. find a new path in a Braver Newer World ?

The terms of the game of global economy have always changed, yet, as a result of
ever accelerating information and goods exchange technologies -  National and
corporate economic health and growth require anticipating, embracing, and
conquering those changes - faster and faster as each month passes.
Preferably, being the Originator and Owner of any positive Economic Change is
the best choice.
That is, the top nations set their own terms of economic competition and
everybody else tries to keep up...
versus...
continuing to cling to ignoring reality and pretending there is no consequence
for ineptitude, shortsightedness, and not besting or, at worst, keep up with
one's competitors.

How ?
How does the U.S.A. change from our choice of becoming a Debtor rather than a
Supplier Nation ?

As you know, there is a tilting point for every choice where correcting one's
choice suddenly goes from a bit of work to a lot of work... and if corrective
action is neglected long enough, eventually, correction becomes almost
impossible.

American Corporations' (and government) choices have been Short Term Oriented
for way too long.
Short Term Choices are how Americans have been led to our current dilemma.

If any business concern could outsource union jobs (or non-unionized jobs), that
was good for that business' short term bottom line, right ?
Maximize Profit by minimizing the cost of your goods.
Makes sense.

If any technology had grown stale or was too costly to be worked by Americans,
running that technology at a lower cost outside America, or better yet, selling
that technology off to a foreign buyer who paid more than any American business
would pay - would generate much needed short term capital.

If any form of resource (labor, raw goods, currency interest, or even pollution
consequences) were cheaper outside American, made short term sense to buy
whatever you needed at the lowest cost available.

And... when it comes to Educating America's youth... American Business really
had no need to pay homegrown Engineers, Mathematicians, Scholars, and other
"professional" skills... more... than what foreign educated individuals in any
particular professional skill set will accept... in the short term.

Thus, the de-emphasis of educating a homegrown future Domestic work force to
compete with a Foreign work force... when... American business has no Economic
Motivation for the cost of educating any of its work force.

So... How ?
How does a Nation correct its short term choices...
when those corrections mostly require long term commitment (and, yes,
sacrifice) ?

When any Nation falls into the Delusion of Entitlement... that Nation's
population will not attempt to save itself from reality until the bottom falls
out.

So... How ?
How do we put the Genie of post WWI Industrial and Technological America back
into the bottle, now, before reality finally over-rides artificial economic
devices that prop up what cannot continue to be propped up artificially ?

Unfortunately, America's production foundation is dying.
Counting on WWIII to Force this Nation to rebuild its Production Industry and
generate new technologies' production - will not "save" our Economy as did WWII
(and as WWI also did to an extent).

America's Infra-structure is crumbling.
But there is no "New Deal" coming on the Horizon for America.
There is no National effort to rejuvenate olde or build new infrastructure.
America is supported by 1930's 1940's 1950's and 1960's infrastructure and works.

America's Communications services and costs are second-class.
Singapore and many Asian Metropolitan areas enjoy Internet connectivity speeds
of 100mbps at the same or lower cost than Americans pay for 1.5mbps service.
And our communication devices (PC's, laptops, phones, etc.) are produced by
Asian economies, primarily.
Thus, it costs the Rest of the World... Less... than it costs Americans to
communicate. The money that is spent by Americans for communications devices is
used by the foreign economies who produce those devices.. to gain on America,
economically.

America is no longer her own banker, either.
The US Dollar is no longer appealing (for quite some time, actually) to Asian
Business or Banking - because taking US Dollars as payment for Goods and
Services results in a Loss of Profit for Asian Business and Banking who must
often hold onto those US Dollars for any time period (particularly, the method
in which China administrates the processing of Incoming US Dollars to Chinese
businesses).

Unfortunately, America's Savings and Loan has become... Asia.
And, primarily, China is floating and servicing America's National Debt.
The Japanese are divesting out of US Dollar Holdings and will not be there to
prop up America's National Debt's Interest.

So... How ?
How does America correct her choices of the past few decades that have
undermined most everything that did make America the Greatest Economic Power on
Earth ?

In the 1930's... the implosion that led to the Great Depression Forced America's
Businesses and Economic Practices to Correct what led to the collapse of the
American Middle (Working) Class.
WWII created a Production Base in America never seen before in Human History.
The 1950's (and even the 1960's) were a Golden Age of Production, Employment,
and Technology with America leading and besting most all International
Competition.

Now ?

Not going to happen.
Not possible with the way American Banking is structured.
Not possible with the Circus that has become American Management (both
Politically, Economically, and Culturally).

Any form of Economic Collapse will not spur the Regeneration of America
Productivity.

The Phoenix will not rise from the ashes, this next time, as America rose from
the Great Depression.

America could save herself...
and once again be an Economic Force head and shoulders above the total Economic
output of the next 3 or 4 or 5 competing nations' efforts.

But.
That would require Change.
And...
Change sucks.

Think a Happy Meal and a Box of Crispy Cremes will make me feel all better about
things. Because looking at Reality sure is a bummer.

Regards,






Phil Dillard wrote:
: "How quaint the ways of paradox,
:   At common sense she gaily mocks"
:      (The Pirates of Penzance, Gilbert & Sullivan)
: In 1959 there was a movie with Peter Sellers entitled When a Mouse Roars.
: The premise of the movie is this:  The Duchy of Grand Fenwick decides that the
: only way to get out of 
: their economic woes is to declare war on the United States, lose and accept
: foreign aid. 
: Along this line... by the end of WWII (the "Good War") we had absolutely
: destroyed Japan's economy.  In 
: an unprecedented role of the victor, we decided to rebuild their country and
: economy.
: Now, look, Japan has beaten us in the areas of automobiles, cameras, and
: electronics.
: (RIch and Hess will certainly know more about Japan's situation than I, and
: hopefully will comment).
: Japan has outpaced us with the "green" automobile.  Detroit, as usual, is
: trying to catch up.
: Can an "industrial giant" (the U.S.A.) find its way back to a leadership role
: of pre-eminence in a global 
: economy?  Or are we the next "third world" entity?
: Or, perhaps, maybe I should just be outsourced to Bangladesh....
: But I worry...
: Phil
: Cedar City, Yewtaw

I agree. I am in no way a techie. I love that we have computers and other tools 
to get the job done. But, I definately see a need for knowing HOW to do it, if 
the tool sfails. Here is my real world situation relative to this. I was in the 
Army in the early to mid 90s. I was a forward observer. I caleld in fire 
missions on the enemy using primarily artillery, but also close air support and 
Naval gun fire. I am not a math whix at all. Some of the equasions were pretty 
complicated to me. Especially a "time on target mission" which is calculating 
how fast a moving target (enemy vehicle or convoy) and projecting when they 
will be passing a certain point, then firing the arty at the proper time to hit 
th etarget. To some, this is no big deal. TO me it was pretty hard. I spent 
alot of extra time having those that "got it" explaining it to me. Once I got 
it, it was easy stuff. 
The other point with this conversation is depending on a tool to do the job. 
Once out of training, most people used the lasers, laser range finders and 
other hi-tech cool toys to figure out distances, and GPS to figure out thier 
location, and the location of the target. Once I understood how to use these 
tools, I set em down, picked up my map, comapss and Observed Fire fan, and did 
it the old way. A tool is just that, a tool. Te hjold military, and cop 
expression about training is this "you train how you fight". In training, if I 
am dependant on a computer, gps, or what ever else, when it comes time to 
firght, there is a chance the hi-tech stuff can break. When that happens, ya 
better know how to do it manually. 
Toys and tools are great for convienence, but if they break, ya have to know ho 
wto survive without it. 

Getting to know my Spider
76 124 Spider
2001 Triumph Sprint RS (soon to be for sale)
2004 Nissan Frontier
2007 VW Passat Wagon (2.0 Turbo)

As I recall, did you not use knowledge of Bernoulli equations to reason out how 
fluid behaves inside an engine block?  That basic knowledge is taught in high 
school physics.  Those equations were published in 1738.  Ancient technology!

The math behind deriving those equations is a college subject.

George Emery

Phil,

The paradox of this thread is that it appears on a website devoted to cars
produced in Italy. It is indeed a small world.

Richard

Just because someone doesn't use calculus, doesn't mean it isn't important. 
Science and math are useful for everyone, because they teach people to reason
and deduce.  Real mathematics is not about calculations, it's about logically
constructing arguments about known quantities and relating seemingly different
sets (and more importantly, the properties pertaining to those sets) to one
another.

If you really don't think people need math, just imagine how things would be
different if people could do a few projections on saving for their retirement,
or building debt.  An idea as simple as compounding is completely lost on the 
majority of the population.



Rich Stephens (Pacifica, CA) wrote:
: George Emery  (Oregon City) wrote:
: : The trades use all this "hard" and "unuseful" math everyday.  If they don't 
: : know the basics of it, then they'll screw up the work because they try to do
: it 
: : by the seat of their pants.  White collar support staff who can't master a 
: : geometry proof aren't going to be able to figure out the answer to a simple 
: : technical question...
: What percentage of the working population of this country do you think needs
: math above basic algebra to do their job? I suspect it is less than 1% of the
: population. I work in the 'trades' so to speak and i never need math that's
: harder than algebra. And 90% of the time, when I do need math, I let the
: computer do it for me anyway.
: Some other 'trade' related projects may require engineers to do more complex
: calculations and modelling, but you get a couple engineers to spec out a
project
: that then requires hundreds of guys to do the actual work according to the
: plans. As long as we have a few people who are into science and math, safe
: bridges will still get built. Similarly, there may be a dozen research
: scientists involved in creating a new drug, but then thousands of other
: employees selling it and doing all the administrative task of the company.
: Of course from a cultural perspective, i'd love it if the average person had an
: understanding of evolution, natural selection, the vastness of the cosmos,
basic
:  physics, cultural anthropology, world history and so on. But even that would
: just require a surface level understanding on the level of "physics for poets"
: (i.e. a survey of every field of physics, but where no calculations are done)
or
: reading general population books by Bill Bryson, Stephen Hawking, Jared
Diamond,
: or Joseph Cambell and the like. 99% of the population has no need to actually
: *do* the science, as long as they know the generalities.
: We live in an era of specialization.
: ............................................................
: Rich Stephens, Pacifica, CA
: Former Fiats: two 1500 cabs, a Dino, two 131 wagons, a brava
: Surf van:'72 Fiat 238 Weinsberg 'Wohnmobile' CamperVan
: Daily driver:  '69 124 Spider
: One of every Fiat project: http://www.3jar.com/fiat
: Bay Area Running of the Fiats club: http://barf.mirafiori.com

George Emery  (Oregon City) wrote:
: As I recall, did you not use knowledge of Bernoulli equations to reason out
how 
: fluid behaves inside an engine block?  That basic knowledge is taught in high 
: school physics.  Those equations were published in 1738.  Ancient technology!
: The math behind deriving those equations is a college subject.

That's basically what I'm saying. Knowing the stuff high school level knowledge
is great. It seemed some guys wanted to say that that isn't enough for a
productive workforce and we should raise the level of what is taught in school.
I was saying that as long as 1% of the population knows the fancier stuff,
productivity will still remain high and we can still be innovative as a country
because it only takes one guy to write computer software (for example) and 99 to
use it and there is no need for the 99 to know how to write the programs. In
reality, the ratio may be closer to 1 to 1,000.

I mean, there are is a lot of physics and math behind what I do everyday. But I
never have to prove it all from scratch as a guy with a math/physics phd might
be able to. It's enough for me to know the practical application and follow the
recommendations that some probably more highly educate person worked out for our
industry once upon a time. 

Heck, since i have to carry licenses from the department of health, I already
have to learn and pass tests on all kinds of stuff i'll never use in my daily
job and probably very few of us taking these exams will ever use. I'm vaguely
interested in it, so I don't mind, but...


Anyway, instead of worrying about kids learning more advanced math and science,
I think we'd do better to teach them things everyone needs everyday like how to
manage our money and budget and invest, the impact our actions have on the
environment and other people around the world, how to recognize scams and
fallacies of logic (especially in advertising and political campaigns!), and
stuff like that.



............................................................
Rich Stephens, Pacifica, CA
Former Fiats: two 1500 cabs, a Dino, two 131 wagons, a brava
Surf van:'72 Fiat 238 Weinsberg 'Wohnmobile' CamperVan
Daily driver:  '69 124 Spider
One of every Fiat project: http://www.3jar.com/fiat
Bay Area Running of the Fiats club: http://barf.mirafiori.com

John Connors wrote:
: Just because someone doesn't use calculus, doesn't mean it isn't important. 
: Science and math are useful for everyone, because they teach people to reason
: and deduce.  Real mathematics is not about calculations, it's about logically
: constructing arguments about known quantities and relating seemingly different
: sets (and more importantly, the properties pertaining to those sets) to one
: another.
: If you really don't think people need math, just imagine how things would be
: different if people could do a few projections on saving for their retirement,
: or building debt.  An idea as simple as compounding is completely lost on the 
: majority of the population.

Yes, but instead of teaching them higher math so that they learn how to reason
and deduce and whatnot, and then hope that they apply those skills to other
areas of life that are more commonly required, we should be teaching people
those skills directly as used in things people really need to do! Instead of
teaching "logic" through a math context that few people will ever need to use,
teach them logic by analysing advertising and political speeches and scams so
that they don't get taken in by them. Teach them compounding in lessons about
managing personal finances. And so on...

And then the few people who want to use their logic skills for theoretical
physics can go to University and do so.





............................................................
Rich Stephens, Pacifica, CA
Former Fiats: two 1500 cabs, a Dino, two 131 wagons, a brava
Surf van:'72 Fiat 238 Weinsberg 'Wohnmobile' CamperVan
Daily driver:  '69 124 Spider
One of every Fiat project: http://www.3jar.com/fiat
Bay Area Running of the Fiats club: http://barf.mirafiori.com

Rich Stephens (Pacifica, CA) wrote:
: teach them logic by analysing advertising and political speeches and scams so
: that they don't get taken in by them. 

That's what polisci, history and econ classes are for.  that's what they do!  We
did all that stuff in high school, no "higher education" involved.


: Teach them compounding in lessons about
: managing personal finances. And so on...

That doesn't work when they don't understand math!  You have to give them the
tools before they can built anything.


: And then the few people who want to use their logic skills for theoretical
: physics can go to University and do so.

how will they even know what physics is?  or whether they want to learn it?  the
scientists and engineers are supposed to study politics till they're 18?  you'll
lose all the engineers and we'll end up where this thread started.

John Connors wrote:
: how will they even know what physics is?  or whether they want to learn it? 
the
: scientists and engineers are supposed to study politics till they're 18? 
you'll
: lose all the engineers and we'll end up where this thread started.

We already get all that stuff in high school. I'm not saying it should be
eliminated. I'm just arguing against the necessity to raise the level of science
and math education in primary education. It's simply not necessary for the
health of the nation or the average person. What we have now is fine. 

I mean, does it really matter if the average secretary or salesman in Japan or
Korea might have better understanding of science and math than the average
American? I say no - as long as we have enough people with advanced knowledge of
those subjects, the skill level of the rest of the country doesn't really
matter. The drug saleman doesn't need to know how to make the medicine himself.

Any money we were going to spend on boosting science and math in elementary,
middle, and high schools could be better spent on making University more
affordable for those who wish to or need to study further. 


............................................................
Rich Stephens, Pacifica, CA
Former Fiats: two 1500 cabs, a Dino, two 131 wagons, a brava
Surf van:'72 Fiat 238 Weinsberg 'Wohnmobile' CamperVan
Daily driver:  '69 124 Spider
One of every Fiat project: http://www.3jar.com/fiat
Bay Area Running of the Fiats club: http://barf.mirafiori.com

Is it needed? Not really, but for the sake of advancement I think higher
understanding of math and science are necessary. When you raise the lowest
common variable, the top raises as well (with people at least). 

University? Now that's something 99% of the population doesn't need...

-Dan
76 X1/9
77 Spider
81 BMW 320i
...and tons of junk!
http://axisautosalvage.com/